Babylon Podcast #205: Feedbackapalooza, Second Wind

Comments

1. Michael Johnston says:

   July 17, 2010 at 6:11 pm

   > Lurker Steve in MN has a theory that the Minbari religious beliefs may be the result of Vorlon tampering

   I thought this was clear to everyone, only to hear that three hosts disagreed with Steve. I have never explained this to anyone, but I’ll try. Maybe like a joke, if you have to explain it, it’s not worthwhile.

   JMS filled B5 with the idea that meddling is not a good thing — not good intention or bad intention, just don’t meddle at all. The Vorlons did not have to be seen, so they could plant impressions and little things like psychic genes that would create telepaths. Ditto Shadows. When these races desired to be seen, they could appear as whatever would have created the reaction they wanted. Assigning the meaning behind an action to an created appearance would be a human idea and not something an advanced race would do. If you want to start a war, you can provide a sequence of events planned such that one side instantly and completely blames the other, and no disguise of angels or devils is needed. Indeed, it would get in the way in that it would attract attention to the wrong point.

   The answer to the question of which side to follow is given by Sheridan when he tells both sides to leave them alone. Russia shouldn’t direct, point, focus, build, or tear down Afghanistan; America shouldn’t try to impose their point of view on Vietnam; and there are many more examples that JMS no doubt considered in illustrating this idea. Short version: Don’t be judgmental.

   Cheers!
   Michael

   Reply
   • Summer says:

     July 17, 2010 at 9:08 pm

     Not judging. Just strongly disagreeing with the levels of meddling being put forth as theories based on piles of evidence to the contrary.

     Did the Vorlons take advantage of existing Minbari beliefs for thousands of years? Yes. Did they perform genetic manipulations all over the place to make it easier for them, so those species could perceive a telepathic projection of a celestial image whenever they saw a Vorlon, and to speed up the development of true telepaths? Hell yes. Did they create the entire expanse of the Minbari religious system? I have to say no.

     We don’t have any evidence that the Vorlons came to Minbar in their pre-spacefaring days specifically to design a societal system (the three castes), and set up a framework for their religious caste to adhere to, nor to make any other influence that would guarantee the other castes would abide by the doctrines set forth from that framework. Too damned much work to do in a society that was thousands of years away from stepping into space, and even longer than that away from becoming a space-faring powerhouse.

     Checking the Chronologies: the last war between the First Ones and the Shadows was around 8000BC. Someone started building jumpgates around 5000BCE. Minbari civilization “dawned” around 4800BCE, and the three castes evolved later, but they didn’t become space-faring until around 1100 (they discovered the jumpgate network). During the last Shadow War involving the last of the First Ones, Valen brought B4 to the Minbari in 1260, created the Grey Council, and turned the tide of that war.

     My opinion is that most of the changes in Minbari culture that we know of from “modern” times were brought to them by Sinclair when he joined them as Valen, and single-handedly transformed their culture to help them survive that Shadow War, and thrive beyond it as a major force in order to help protect the rest of the galaxy when the Shadows returned. The Grey Council and his edict that Minbari shall not kill Minbari brought a stability to Minbari culture that they hadn’t previously known… if the Vorlons were truly that interested in guiding Minbari culture, they would have taken a more active hand in stabilizing it long before. Since all the Vorlons wanted was more sentient bodies to fight on their side, what the Minbari did at home truly didn’t matter that much to them.

     The Vorlons were too busy playing the larger game of chess with the Shadows to worry about what each tiny pawn was doing at home. Especially in the times when the First Ones were still in the game… I don’t think they would have allowed the Vorlons to have engaged in that deep a level of manipulation. From the rules Lorien set down, that wouldn’t have been tolerated. After the rest of the First Ones left, sure, they got more meddly, but by that time, Minbari culture had already been set for 5000 years.

     So I’m not being judgmental, just making a conclusion based on the massive amounts of B5 knowledge on my bookshelves and floating around in my brain!

     Reply
2. Ulkesh says:

   July 18, 2010 at 11:56 pm

   Father Beast’s “Sleeping in Light”-invoking voicemail may be the single greatest voicemail yet heard on this podcast.

   Reply