The questions were broached in Show #203, so now we officially pose it to our fans and listeners:
What topic or theme from Babylon 5, something that goes beyond being an episode-specific event, do you think should be or needs to be discussed here?
Feel free to add your suggestions here in the comments, or email them into the show!
Love the podcast guys! Here’s a topic that might be of interest to some fans and listeners:
The Future of the Babylon 5 Franchise
What are your thoughts and predictions on the future of the Babylon 5 franchise? What do you think will happen and what do you want to see happen, if anything? What do you think about recent comments made by JMS about the possibility of a big budget feature film for the 20th anniversary in 2013? Is that going to happen? What ideas, characters, events, and/or subjects would you like to see explored in a B5 film or other media?
Just heard one of the hosts on Slice VM Show recommend that new viewers skip Season 1 and start with Season 2 of B5, and it seemed there was general agreement. I have always particularly liked Michael O’Hare’s portrayal of Sinclair and took quite a while to become comfortable with Sheridan.
It is never a good idea to begin a discussion where there is overwhelming and aggressive feeling on one side, so maybe this is not a good idea for the show if your panel is all in the camp that describes Season 1 as so bad that it’s actually optional. But if you think that a little understanding of the series finding its footing is an acceptable explanation for some of the unevenness, and that certain episodes are outstanding, and that the graphics were brilliant (stop comparing them to subsequent seasons because they didn’t have your time machine then), that the music was compelling, then maybe a discussion might be possible whereby the consensus would be that it’s really OK for a first-time viewer to start there!
How many discussions of which episode to start with Firefly end in tragedy? Oh, and even George Lucas started with Episode IV.
Cheers!
Michael
Michael, I believe that response was regarding the “straight through” viewings. I think in another show we discussed which episodes from each season to “cherry pick” from in order to introduce complete newbies to the show.
Because of the uncertainties around whether or not the show would be back from one season to the next, what we received described and defined the core of Babylon 5 in terms of the Shadow War. While some the seeds of that conflict were sown in S1, all of the forces moving everything to a head started in S2. The active gathering of allies and staging of forces, the discovery of Shadow agents and plots, all of that truly ramped up in S2.
Even the battles with Clark’s administration in Earthgov served to sever ties with compromised home alliances and put the station and its command staff in a *better* position to lead the fight against the Shadows.
So, as a place to start watching B5 straight through, start with S2. Otherwise, cherry pick S1, then by the time they get to S3, they’ll want to go back and watch the other episodes on their own to fill in the blanks, which is what brings tears of joy to those of us welcoming fresh minds into the fandom 🙂
And for sure, there is no one “camp” that any of us are on about Season 1, or about Season 5. Honestly, you’ve listened to us long enough to know that except for opinions on “Day of the Dead”, there’s no aggression, and many of those other opinions are fluid and can shift upon subsequent rewatchings 🙂
Just started the River of Souls podcast, and a genuine question came to me at about 18:00: Why does Gene Roddenberry’s Star Trek and JMS’s Babylon 5 both quietly and without overt demonstration throw positive feeling and attitude towards religion? Star Trek (original) always showed that religion was a private choice and something that was not considered at odds with science or sanity. Then in B5 we get the same feeling from JMS. Why? Does he buy into the concept of ‘soul’? Does he think that future generations of space explorers and colonists will?
I can’t wait to get to the next episode on religion because it’s a bellwether for the SF writer. I can’t think of one who hasn’t written stories about or included large chunks of theology or at least religious theory in their output. But, recounting what I’ve heard from JMS interviews, religion as presented in B5 is a good bit at odds with his own personal ideas. IOW, he’s presenting a much nicer portrait of religion that is accurate. Religion has done a great deal of harm and he sidesteps it entirely. Let’s all suggest that JMS go on Real Time with Bill Maher in the Fall.
In any case, the use of mystery as religion throughout B5 episodes would make a great couple of episodes. To balance, you might have an episode on philosophical concepts as presented by JMS. Mostly, you could follow the arc of G’Kar for this. I always thought that JMS gave more of this kind of speech to Andreas after he heard what he sounded like in the role and was capable of delivering. His speeches could have always been longer for me and to this day form the big cornerstones of the entire series.
Cheers!
Michael
Michael:
I would disagree that JMS sidesteps the harm that religion can do. It’s stated more than once that the Earth/Minbari War was, in essence, a holy war on the part of the Minbari. Cartagia’s actions as Emperor were based in a maniacal desire to make the religious apotheosis of the Emperor real. And G’Kar’s struggles to communicate his spiritual ideals and ideas to his people, who wanted nothing more than to make him an icon spouting meaningless koans, explores how religions stray from the source.
What JMS does, IMHO, is explore the many different aspects of religion, good and bad.
John, I do agree that multiple stories include religion and the behavior that results from the followers of religion, but that’s not what I mean. JMS never shows that spirituality is a damaging fiction. This is the Bill Maher position, and it’s a strong anti-religious stance.
Religion in all forms is always shown in B5 as a good thing, perhaps misunderstood and misused by the overzealous, but fundamentally a good thing. I wonder if JMS felt that in his speculative telling of the future the idea of religion and spirituality as nonsense would never be accepted by most fans and would serve as a lightning rod for criticism of his narrative, detracting from his other points woven throughout the stories.
Cheers!
Michael
Summer, I meant “aggressive” in the sense of vigorous and assertive comments of the position. I don’t believe that any of the podcast regulars thinks that S1 is in the #1 or #2 spot, as I do. Telling prospective viewers to start with S2 is an assertion that they would be better off beginning there instead of where JMS began. That’s what I meant by “aggressive.”
Of course, the hosts and guests hold a variety of opinion on many topics, but skipping S1 seems to hold consensus, doesn’t it? I certainly heard this in one of the recent Slice VM shows. It’s not such a big deal, but it strikes me that there must be something about S1 that affects nearly everyone in this way. I wonder why it doesn’t affect me similarly! After S3, S1 is my favorite, and I would never have thought to suggest to a new viewer to skip S1.
So, I’m not disagreeing with you and pretty much everybody else about newbies skipping S1 as much as I wonder why I don’t see it that way.
Cheers!
Michael
When you’ve had enough friends who you know enjoy scifi and might like a show like B5 tell you that they couldn’t get into the show, you have to up the ante… if they still aren’t interested after seeing some of the more intriguing episodes of S2/S3, then neither of you have wasted your time. For me, this was also about 8-10 years ago, after the main series had concluded.
I didn’t fully appreciate S1 until about halfway through S2, when I started to see a lot of pieces coming together. That, and because of the very odd broadcast schedule where I lived, I missed most of S1 when it was originally airing… I never saw all of S1 straight through until much later (was it TNT or Scifi Channel that aired the reruns first?). I eagerly watched S1 to find all the pieces I’d missed up until that point.
Call the “start with S2” stance an adaptation to how different TV is now than it was 15-20 years ago. There are series that I used to love way back when that I can’t really watch anymore, and that goes hand-in-hand with ones I still can’t get enough of (and even then, I have to pop in the DVD instead of watching on live TV).
Either way, given how quickly people want to “get to the story” these days, it is a slower paced series than people are used to, compared to newer series. Even a show like “Burn Notice” with its layers of machinations and manipulations still has beau coup action from the get-go. So starting potential new B5 fans off where the action in the series starts to heat up, to see if there’s a chance to get them hooked, seems to me like a great way to bring new folks in the side door.
I think a good topic for a future broadcast would be the music of B5. I know it has been mentioned now and then during podcasts, but I would love a entire show devoted to it. One thing I think is unique about B5 was the different theme songs from each season. I’m not sure if any other show has done this, but I could be wrong.
I understand that you might be waiting until you see if you can get Christopher Francke to do an interview, but I still think there is a whole show talking about music and how JMS used it to great effect in the show. He mentioned it a bit during your interview of him last year, but I thought production-wise, music was used in B5 better than any other Sci-Fi TV show that I can think of.
Who can forget the music montage in the “In The Beginning” movie with Londo talking about how the Humans fought during the Minbari war? The music when Delenn in the Whitestar with 3 Minbari War Cruisers show up during “Severed Dreams” saving the day? The music in “And The Cried Out, No Hiding Place” both in the gospel song and the “blowing of horns” when Delenn reveals that the Whitestar “was not one of a kind” with the visual of many Whitestars in formation?
I could go on, but I think you get the point. Music was used very effectively in B5 and I think it is worthy of it’s own show.
Rob from MI.
Michael:
Just FYI, so we’re on a fair playing field, I’m an agnostic, though brought up in the Catholic tradition.
I understand the Bill Maher position; “Religulous” was a very funny way for him to state his case. But I think you discount some of the negative aspects of religion explored in the B5 universe, and what JMS was trying to do within the story. His intention was to demonstrate how different religious traditions among the prominent species of that part of the galaxy were a part of the cohesive whole of that culture. And, by contrast, how humans differed by having a multitude of religions.
Yet…and this was left for the viewer to contemplate…there was the underlying question posed: were all those religions the result of Vorlon manipulation, and therefore built around a false premise? And for that matter, much of the religious tradition of the Minbari can be traced back to Valen, and we all know what the truth was behind that.
I don’t think JMS copped out at all. If Babylon 5 was about choice and consequence, then it makes absolute sense to demonstrate how religion factors into that, but in ways that served the story.
I’d love for you guys to talk about Michael O’hare, and whatever happened behind the scenes with him and his character. I thought he was very powerful as Sinclair.
Summer wrote: “Call the “start with S2? stance an adaptation to how different TV is now than it was 15-20 years ago.”
This is clearer to me, thanks. It’s also the quality shift over time of the stories, isn’t it? Would anyone suggest getting into Twilight Zone at any point other than S1? Sure, you could skip to one of the top-tier classics, but that just feels wrong to me. If you don’t follow the early stories, you miss out on just how impressive the Billy Mumy & the Cornfield episode was! Or Kick the Can. And that’s for an anthology series, too.
I’ve read a lot of opinion over whether it was better or worse to start Firefly where they started it — train robbery, right? Star Trek started with an episode that was quite different in every respect from the pilot. Maybe there are several factors which cause people to admire and want to watch more episodes, and for me that came in B5’s S1. But this, being 2010, maybe S2 is a better beginning for today’s viewer. Is that right?
But this, being 2010, maybe S2 is a better beginning for today’s viewer. Is that right?
That’s the gist of it. Twilight Zone is different, because it’s an anthology series. There’s even a limit to how much you can skip in B5 because of the serial arc format of the show… there’s no way to start someone at “Divided Loyalties” and expect them to know where everyone stands.
And you so do NOT want to get me started on the original broadcast order of Firefly. It was definitely worse… I loved the show from the get go, but I always had a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I was missing something. The show’s cancellation had already been announced when Fox aired the 2hr pilot dead last, but no way I wasn’t going to watch. Every single question I had was answered in that 2hrs, and I was so angry that I boycotted all Fox shows save for sporting events for a good 5-6 years. You have any idea how hard it was for me to quit the second season of “24” cold turkey, never to return? Yeah 🙂
“…waiting until you see if you can get Christopher Francke to do an interview”
I have tried several times to make a contact with him and his agent about publishing some of his music, and we stand a better chance of interviewing JMS. Oh, wait. Hmmm, maybe we can get JMS to call him for us. I was originally interested in hearing what he had to say, but after this refusal to talk to anyone (not just Tim and Summer), I’m not so interested. And the interviews with set designers, artists, and Snack Man, all of whom wanted to participate and clearly had fun, are infinitely better than someone who has no interest and hides.
Granted, just because it worked with me for B5 (and a few other shows) doesn’t mean it would work for everyone, but why not try the “throw them in the deep end to teach them how to swim” method of getting into a show? As I said when I made my very first VM call, my first full episode of Babylon 5 that I was consciously watching, as opposed to it merely being something my grandma Judy was watching while I was on the computer (also how I got into HBO’s Oz oddly enough), was Severed Dreams. Yeah, Severed Dreams. Yes, I didn’t fully understand what was going on, but after watching that episode, I sure as f*** wanted to. It’s the same way I got into the relaunched Doctor Who (Planet of the Dead was my first there, and thanks to my dead I was all caught up in time for the U.S. airing of Waters of Mars), Stargate SG-1 (Not having Showtime, I ended up not “discovering” that one until Season 7!), NYPD Blue (Jimmy Smit’s death arc was where I jumped in), Law & Order (the final episode of Chris Noth when he slugged the anti-gay city councilman), and the aforementioned Oz (the death of Adibisi was IIRC the first ep of that I actually paid attention to), just to name a few.
So, why not try to hook a newbie on to the show with the big Wham episode of the series, the Hugo winner, the “holy shit this is DEFINITELY not Star Trek” episode?
Just a thought.
D’oh! Fruedian slip? I meant to say “thanks to my DAD!”
Personally I would love to see a discussion on the real world science that was in Babylon to me the fact that they used either real world who scientific elements like a spinning station for gravity and the maneuvering of the Star Furies was one of the great appeals of B5.
Also how about a show on the influences of B5 on other media products and the direct reference to it in some cases.
Hi guys. How about an episode where you look into the various influences and antecedents that likely and by JMS’s admission, definitely inspired Babylon 5, from The Lord Of The Rings to The Demolished Man to The Epic Of Gilgamesh and so on. As well as being what I think would be an interesting discussion, it would be a great way of encouraging some further reading – I myself still haven’t gotten around to reading ‘The Demolished Man’.
Oh, and I’m currently working my way through the books, having just finished ‘To Dream In The City Of Sorrows’. You’ve already mentioned covering these, so I’ll simply say I look forward to it – especially with that particular book, filling in as it does the gaps with Sinclair.
I would love to see a plotholes episode. I would love to have all the dangling plot lines exposed, Talia’s mind recording, Bureau 13, etc…
I like the “Dangling Threads” idea. We’d have to make sure to note anything that happened to have been wrapped up in any of the novels, if any of them were (I think one was), but I think we can argue about those for at least two episodes (three if we let Tim run with it)! 😉
How about one on Babylon 5 Technology. JMS has, on more than one occasion, stated that they tried to keep to ‘real’ science as possible. It might be interesting to take a complete inventory of B5 Tech from PPGs to the Jump Gate. Each could be examined as theoretically possible to techno-babble.
On another topic, I’ve been using Season 1 of the DVD set’s French audio track to a helper in learning French. Does anyone know who of the ‘real’ cast did their French dub? I’d be VERY interested to know, they did a great job.
In terms of the “dangling plot threads” idea, there’s plenty of room there for an extended run of episodes, between the initial presentation of the list and the inevitable feedback debate over whether or not they are, in fact, dangling plot threads…;)
(And would one consider it a dangling plot thread if the reason for it was explained at the time?)
Weren’t dangling plot threads covered in the “What Did We NOT Like” episode?
We only touched on a tiny few in that episode. What I want to see is as complete a cataloging as we, as true B5 fanatics, can muster.
I want to name as many dangling threads as we can find, no matter how obscure or supremely nit-picky, and then we throw out varying suppositions as to either why they were left dangling, or come up with theories to make them undangle.
Hey, I’m doing my best to stretch this podcast into a 6th season… work with me, buddy! 🙂
Between Crusade, LotR, and the books I wouldn’t worry. 😉
Summer, I would be more than happy to participate in that! That’s the sort of thing I love to do!
A dangling thread topic could conceivably span several shows, there a so many directions some of them could go.
Tech discussions (the reality, the gaffs, the possible but not yet realized) could also an extensive conversation.
Before launching into individual books or series I think an overview of most/all of the books and where they fit in the B5 time-line would be an interesting topic as well.
In the same vein as the discussion on Religion what about a talk about crimes, punishment & ethics in the B5 setting? Time has changed some things but the different races have some varying views on the topics too.
That’s about it for now.
Great shows as always
Please try and find Michael O’hare for an interview.
> what about a talk about crimes, punishment & ethics in the B5 setting?
Yes! We saw some of the judicial proceedings in S1 but not again. Was it just assumed that it continued behind the scenes or did something change after the break away? Was Sinclair able to override? Clearly, Sheridan was able to do anything after the Alliance, but before it looked like the authority was still military. During the B5-as-military-station period, where did the civilian law judge weigh in? The US puts civilian government in charge of the military (as in President = top of command) but that did not seem to be the case in B5 until after the Alliance was formed.
Cheers!
Michael
More ideas:
An episode about the main point / theme of the series, as seen by various people, with views on whether JMS got his point/theme across effectively.
An episode of “Did you notice?” stuff. Little details, lines of dialogue, stuff in the background of shots, and connections between episodes. Stuff to watch for when you are going through the series for the 3rd time (or more) that you may have missed in earlier viewings. I know that a lot of this was covered in the episode discussions, but maybe a “Top 10 easily missed items” list from each of the contributors.
Still hoping you’re going to do at least one episode on each of the book trilogies, and talk at least a little about other books (especially “The Shadow Within” and “To Dream in the City of Sorrows”).
Maybe an episode about the comics and the short stories.
And you are going to do episode geeking on Crusade, right?
Larry ditillio would be great to interview.
I want Snack Man back with the real recipe for authentic Flarn. I mean, you can only eat so much spoo.
I have a few more suggestions for additional topics to cover.
1) What time period in the B5 Universe do you think would make a good movie or TV series? My answer would be a movie detailing the Shadow War 1000 years before the time of B5. I would like to see how Valen drove the Shadows back to Z’ha’dum. As far as we know, using telepaths to block the controls of a Shadow ship wasn’t known back then. Only with G’Quan and the rest of the Narn “mindwalkers” did we hear about telepaths being used against the Shadows.
2) More about the production of the show. This topic would have to include Jeffrey as the man behind the shower curtain. A few of the complaints I hear from younger people who are trying to watch the series are the CGI (which was good for its time) and bad/poor acting from mainly the secondary/supporting actors in some episodes. Not necessarily the recurring actors, but some of the ones that were on for only one episode. Looking back, it does seem that there were a number of questionably talented actors in the 1st and 2nd seasons. Was B5 looked down upon by some agents and managers of actors who didn’t want their clients in an unknown show?
3) As was mentioned previously, I definitely would like to hear theories from the hosts and the audience about the plot lines that didn’t get developed that much or were left dangling. One example was who and why was the Great Machine on Epsilon 3 built?
That is all for now. Keep up the good work, except for the last episode (207?) where without Summer, it seemed like Tim and Brett were stepping all over each other trying to get their comments out. 😛
Rob in MI
Rob, Summer and I have had five years to work together, and do our best to not overtalk each other… with (IMHO) mixed results. Bret is a newer voice in the mix, so we are still figuring out each other’s pauses, speech patterns, etc.
Tim, I was joking, hence the tongue sticking out smilie. You guys do a great job. Don’t take it too seriously. 🙂
Rob in MI
All,
There are some additional ideas for show topics listed in the Farpoint Forums under the Babylon 5 Podcast directory.
One good idea for a show would be an interview with an expert on O’Neill stations.
Jim
How about an episode where telepaths, the PsiCorp etc.. are discussed. or a episode or 2 where you discuss answer questions about important events in the history of B5 that weren’t seen on screen but may have discussed in the various novels guides scriptbooks etc… such as the Dilgar War or the First Shadow War
Since there was a “Surprise” show, how about a “Shenanigans” show.
It seems to be a favorite word amongst the hosts. I would be interested to hear some deeper dissection of “Shenanigans” moments that have not been discussed (or beaten to death *Day of the Dead *).
Great work as always.
Be well.
Matthew
My list of shenanigans would have to include Bureau 13, and where the members of the telepath colony shopped in Down Below to find such obviously top of the line haircare products.
They moved to the Star Trek Universe and changed their name to Section 31 and got a bad-ass leader named Sloane who bore a striking resemblance to Death from the 2nd Bill & Ted movie. 😉
No, Summer! Of all the nefarious experiments conducted by the Psi Corps, none was more insidious than trying to breed telepaths for the Clairol gene.
Seriously? Dude, everyone knows they would have manipulated or enhanced an anti-baldness gene first. You can’t have a perfect hair gene without the hair.
That one they’d have to keep secret, else you’d have mundanes falling all over themselves to see if they were latent telepaths. Hell, that might have eliminated the tensions that led to the Telepath War in the first place.
So, no…. those rogue emopaths had a secret shopper program going or something.
Another show discussion could involve discrimation. I’m thinking Earth/Mars, Centauri/Narn, or even opposing Earth Civil war sides.
A possible topic: Military structure on Babylon 5. There was a kind of “integration of the forces” that raised some eyebrows.